Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 31, 2013 4:33:53 GMT
And on that I agree, I don't think I ever tried to hide the potential for this system, in fact i'm pretty sure my example of the flaw/opportunity was more extreme than yours. That being said I grow tired, I watch my internet points slowly go down as Tara continues to insult me, and I really don't have the energy for it, perhaps I will in the morning.
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Post by tarabull on Aug 31, 2013 4:39:31 GMT
I'm the High Monarch, what can I say? Don't piss me off.
How to avoid pissing me off: Don't push proposals to votes without enough consultation. Don't vote for a rule you think is broken and boast about how you will exploit it.
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hemata
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 451
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Post by hemata on Aug 31, 2013 4:44:18 GMT
I support the current amendment of DC*10 Experience. I mean, is it really that bad to spend time making a suit of fullplate, and then getting 260 experience for it? I don't honestly see the issue with such. Even if you tried to minimize the time to do as much as possible in the shortest amount of time you'd probably be making 20 arrows in a day for 150 experience or so. Most encounters give more than 120 experience and can be done via hunts. Otherwise there will be lapses in time where the crafters will have to spend time going out and potentially getting killed to get experience and nothing is going to be created. Is 120 exp per day REALLY that bad guys? Spend Two weeks on the dot just getting from level 1 to 2. Is it seriously THAT MUCH of an issue?
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Post by tarabull on Aug 31, 2013 4:56:01 GMT
Yes, 150/day is that bad. Hemata, your comparison is to a weekly event and if you recheck the math I think you'll see the trouble. The rate of XP is bad because it's above the expected rate for characters who risk death. Over 3x the rate by Hemata's reckoning. That's ridiculous.
Furthermore the exploits go way beyond that. I can spend 2hrs/day scribing a scroll and still adventure, giving me a ridiculous XP advantage over a noncrafter/caster. Have we talked about what crafting faster (+5 DC) would do? As far as game design goes this is a failure of a proposal.
Not enough thought or input has gone into this. It was rushed forward for the benefit of a few. As far as respecting the process of proposals and voting goes this is a failure of a proposal.
Double fail. That's enough failure for a no vote.
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hemata
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 451
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Post by hemata on Aug 31, 2013 5:38:06 GMT
And where does it say exactly how much Experience a man can get in a day through Combat? Because I just rolled up some test hunting rolls. This is what I got.
Day 1: Nothing. Day 2: wolf(400 exp) Day 3: Boar(600 exp) Day 4: 6 Dire Horses(4,800 Exp) Day 5: Raccoon(200 exp) Day 6: Ankheh(800 Exp) Day 7: Dire Horse(600 Exp)
Now I'm more than confident that a level 10 Barbarian could kill all of these things, thus gaining 7,4000 Experience for a 7 day hunting expedition.
The DC for crafting, last I checked, is 5+Caster Level. So let's assume a level 10 wizard, to match the level 10 barbarian.
8 hours in a day, 2 hours to make a scroll of 2nd level or lower, 150 Experience per scroll(assuming level 10 Caster level and infinite supply of money to use cause magic items are the only thing in Calidor that costs money to craft rather than just access to a resource.)
8/2=4. 150*4=600. 600*7=4,200
Right so the crafter made a little over half what the Barbarian made. Seems fair, one was simply making items for his faction and didn't want to be mauled by things, the other didn't want to waste time making stuff and instead wanted to maul things.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 6:07:57 GMT
We aren't level 10 barbarians, how many of those encounters could your ranger solo? Not to mention the raccoon and horses will run. So scratch those. I couldn't find Ankhen, but 800 exp is CR 3 that's gonna be a tad risky for you so 1000exp safe or 1800 a tad risky. Compare this to Aramus's estimation "I will be going with greatclubs for a number of reasons and it actually nets 11,200 exp a week.....so yeah." with 0 risk involved.
Personally I don't see this as reasonable.
Edit: also with a 30% to get nothing in hunts you got some good rolls, I prefer percentages over chance checking.
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hemata
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 451
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Post by hemata on Aug 31, 2013 6:13:16 GMT
Yes, and there's also assumptions on Tara's part that her faction will just throw her this money for the sheer purpose of her getting experience.
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Post by Silver on Aug 31, 2013 9:03:41 GMT
Reason I want this, isnt to exploit it. I want my cahracter to have access to scrolls and such that is to be crafted by others. But if crafting doesnt level you, there will be a very small amount of it going on.
I already posted my 2 ideas in the other thread, but heres the summary of my 2 options: 1) Allow crafters to sell things for xp. 2) Find average time it takes to each level, subtract a few % for the fact that there's no death risk, and just make that the xp you get from crafting. (say it takes 10 days to reach a certain level, while crafting it would take maybe 12)
Oh and tara... for the love of god, dont be so aggressive.
You are the monarch only in character. On the forums where we are our "real" selves you dont hold any power. Even if we piss you off you arent allowed to metagame and hurt our characters in the game without them angering you there. I think we should just take a breather. No need to get too excited. The reason we are discussing this, is because of 2 things: 1) Normal campaigns often have "downtime" for crafting, which we dont. 2) Normal campaigns allow to adventure for 8 hours, craft for 8 hours, and sleep for 8 hours. We dont. If you could craft while adventuring this wouldnt even be a problem.
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Post by tarabull on Aug 31, 2013 13:15:34 GMT
Hemata: I'm apart from my faction, High Queen now. It would be your money I used to safely gain levels. Hell Calis can't be attacked for 12 months and I'm a crafter. This unbalanced rule would be a HUGE WIN for me.
Why would I not be crafting a DC 25+ item, given the take 10 rule?
renen: The High Queen reference was to Aramaus's complaints about losing rep. Don't wanna lose rep, don't say stuff like: "vote yes, if it passes abuse it." Renen, your suggestion that I am metagaming, while you support a rule whose proponents admit to supporting it for metagaming reasons is, I hope, just self serving nonsense (I hope this because the alternatives are all much sadder).
1)We do have downtime for crafting, it's optional, that's all. 2)So let's address that issue. Let's make crafting possible on the move. If that's the problem this rule is intended to solve I'd say it's ineffective at best. I suspect, however that the proposal exists to make life better for a minority of players, if it was phrased as: let's reduce the value of adventuring for XP, how would you feel about it?
Misinterpretations and misdirections are the only supports currently offered for this foolish addition.
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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 31, 2013 14:14:02 GMT
I don't understand why this was pushed to a vote other than the fact that several people are drooling over the idea of abusing it and getting over 10,000xp a week. This potential for abuse has been mentioned. Furthermore there is no option to NOT implement crafting xp. Honestly I'm disappointed that you are trying to push this through despite understanding it's ability to be abused. Why give double the character growth from crafting than killing? it was a mistake on me making the poll and i didnt catch it before people started voteing its suposed to be yay nay or needs more work and even if i got all nay ansers id go back to the drawing board and retry latr with hopefully better rules my goal is to give crafters some coice incase they dont want to hunt as it stands you can never be a better crafter without going out to fight things i dont know about you but i think after making 400 arrows i might get a little better at it
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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 31, 2013 14:21:43 GMT
Hemata: I'm apart from my faction, High Queen now. It would be your money I used to safely gain levels. Hell Calis can't be attacked for 12 months and I'm a crafter. This unbalanced rule would be a HUGE WIN for me. Why would I not be crafting a DC 25+ item, given the take 10 rule? renen: The High Queen reference was to Aramaus's complaints about losing rep. Don't wanna lose rep, don't say stuff like: "vote yes, if it passes abuse it." Renen, your suggestion that I am metagaming, while you support a rule whose proponents admit to supporting it for metagaming reasons is, I hope, just self serving nonsense (I hope this because the alternatives are all much sadder). 1)We do have downtime for crafting, it's optional, that's all. 2)So let's address that issue. Let's make crafting possible on the move. If that's the problem this rule is intended to solve I'd say it's ineffective at best. I suspect, however that the proposal exists to make life better for a minority of players, if it was phrased as: let's reduce the value of adventuring for XP, how would you feel about it? Misinterpretations and misdirections are the only supports currently offered for this foolish addition. i chalange you to find a dc 25+item that dosnt take a long ass time to make
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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 31, 2013 14:26:43 GMT
new rule is up will wait a few hours before re posting the poll to see what people think
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Post by tarabull on Aug 31, 2013 14:35:38 GMT
Challenge accepted. Let's take a level 10 wizard, since that was the example level used. Level 1 Pearl of Power at an accelerated pace is DC27 and takes 4 hours.
I challenge you to accept the evidence in front of you. This is a silly proposal.
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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 31, 2013 14:38:09 GMT
oh boy 270 exp a day for alvl ten wizard using an alot of materials
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 14:38:14 GMT
At just getting the DC*1 in exp you are still coming out ahead of people hunting in average experience each week.
Also this is 0 risk leveling, which I don't really think should exist.
Another thing I don't like about it is I want people to leave their cities, currently the majority of the game is people running around their cities hunting, I want to pull them away from the cities not lock them in with an overly strong 0 risk leveling system that reduces everyone in the games weekly actions to 5 minutes a week or just a PM to a GM.
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