samuelm
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 133
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Post by samuelm on Aug 29, 2013 23:09:14 GMT
Illusion spells are fun, but how will we make it work if a player intends to mislead his fellows with that kind of magic? I just can't see it working unless the player playing the character being fooled pretends like nothing's up. Does anyone have any ideas on how to solve this issue?
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Post by Lector on Aug 29, 2013 23:15:47 GMT
a bluff check vs sense motive?
or
pm gm that you're casting it and the other players just see a the illusion appear without being told that it's an illusion
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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 29, 2013 23:25:37 GMT
1)seeing a illusion for what it is is a will check
2)bluff sense motive diplomacy intimidate(to force to do something) and the other skills like this cant be used on other players otherwise if i had a high bluff i could just make people do what i want its up to the player to choose of they believe it or not forcing them is just a dick move
3)pming the gm is probably the best way to handle this as that way the other players are completely oblivious or at least only minorly suspicious
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 29, 2013 23:57:57 GMT
The obvious problem with the suggested solutions is silent image (and spells like it). A copy of me appear 20 ft to the right of me. Which one do you attack the me on the left or the me on the right?
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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 30, 2013 0:06:16 GMT
please add more context is it just a man enters a room and sees two of you or you are in a fight with someone and another you appears 20 feet away either way the person get a will save(ps or npc) to see if they can spot an issue with an illusion the only way to prevent this is to have a perfect illusion which i dont think can happen outside of gm thiat
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samuelm
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 133
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Post by samuelm on Aug 30, 2013 0:38:29 GMT
I have a few problems with all of this. Firstly, certain illusion spells only give the target(s) a will save if he/she/they interact with the figment in some way (this is what makes illusions so great). If that gets taken away we might as well just forget about using Illusions because they're going to be pretty useless.
Next is the problem that comes up when you want to mimic another player using an illusion, everyone will get really suspicious when the GM takes control of someone's character for some unexplained reason.
Lastly, I don't think Illusions should be treated on the same basis as bluff, diplomacy, intimidate or any other skill for that matter. Illusions are magical spells they should go beyond what just about anybody can do with just a few skill points.
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 30, 2013 2:13:09 GMT
Right to go back to my example of silent image you only get a will save if you interact with it, its one of the reasons silent image is amazing. Which brings us to the primary problem if you interact with an illusion you get a will save. Which means even if you create a means for the illusion to exist without players knowing the moment they role the will save the jig is up regardless of them passing or failing. Some higher level illusion will still be sort of useful despite this others like silent image become useless.
Hunterkiller, silent image is good because it doesn't really require much more context than I gave you, even if they are 20 feet away unless they interact with the illusion some how (attack or perform so form of action with or against it) they don't roll the save. From the PRD:
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
While ultimately up to the dm more often the mere sudden appearance of an illusion doesn't constitute proof.
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constantine
Volken
Constantine Ilfrey, Wizard Extraordinaire. For a sum i can make you feel as good as it gets.
Posts: 242
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Post by constantine on Aug 30, 2013 15:06:04 GMT
A perception check against the spell DC of the caster and you know that you are looking at a illusion.
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Perkins
Blackwater Pirate
Always trust your spirit.
Posts: 234
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Post by Perkins on Aug 30, 2013 15:31:18 GMT
Uh, how about the usual 'DM secretly rolls your will save so that you don't know that one was rolled when you spot the illusion'? As long as you /w the current DM that you want an illusion to be placed somewhere close to you or somewhere where you can fool someone, then the illusion will be placed, yes? Nobody else will know and if you get to 'act' as the illusion (aka control it) then nobody will know it's an illusion, due to the fact that once they interacted with it, they may have failed their hidden will save rolled by the DM.
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