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Post by Lector on Aug 29, 2013 23:07:00 GMT
It's the same thing to me And there's nothing exciting about an extra RNG. It's like "haha you missed your attack, and as an additional humiliation you gut yourself."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 23:19:04 GMT
So if you are a fragile little wizard you are supposed to stand next to a barbarian swinging a huge hammer about?
Ummm the bow snaps and you get hit with a sharp piece of wood in the face?
What monsters are you talking about? In RPGs monsters are supposed to target the biggest THREAT if there is something slashing it with a sword and something laying on the ground IT WILL ATTACK THE ONE HURTING IT. idk what kind of animals you have encountered.
And solo play is naturally more dangerous.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 23:21:11 GMT
I do understand where you are coming from Dax I really do. I think cyber is pushing it a bit to say like it or get out, that's certainly not an effective attitude to have in a game like this. That being said he/she is right in that not all of our core rules come from Paizo, and while yes most if not all things that have to do with the creation and management of characters are expected to come explicitly from Paizo. You only need to take the briefest look at Clout's rulebook to see that there is more here than just Paizo. Balance is a rather limited concern (to me) and honestly I feel generally an overrated one (there are extremes to imbalance that should be avoided but I don't think the fumble rules reach those extremes). To address your other concern we aren't epic heroes. Ajax was not a level 2 warrior, nor is Hercules a level 3 barbarian, Agamemnon did not lay seige to troy with fewer hit dice than fingers, and Circe did not oppose Odysseus when she still had to worry about spells per day. We are at best more powerful than average, and quite frankly a lot of better than average people die in very silly, accidental, or otherwise avoidable ways. At high levels (as in high enough that using a resurrection spell on wouldn't be a massive waste of gold) there are many, many ways to deal with unexpected damage, especially if you are in a party. Lector, I didn't say fun I said exciting. I think I was being too emphatic in my most recent post. My apologies, and thank you for being reasonable. You're right, my point was not that non paizo material isn't used, but that everything regarding management of characters is supposed to be direct from Paizo. Based on my experiences in similar styles of games (2 years of a homebrew vampire larp), striving for balanced gameplay cannot be overrated (as long as it doesn't interfere in actual gameplay). Having people blaming their problems on the system is a bad time for everyone. You're right, of course, that level 1-3 characters aren't epic fantasy heroes. Still, I like to think of my characters as being at least competent, and there's nothing like a fumble for making you feel incompetent. I think you're again, right, that it comes down to a stylistic difference of whether you prefer excitement over balance and a less deadly system. Both can translate to "fun" for different people. So I think it's an issue of how many people we have that fall into each camp. CybernX - I'm sorry I've offended you.
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Post by Silver on Aug 29, 2013 23:25:17 GMT
Well, ajax was likely level 6 or so, Herc was around 10 or 12, and Circe was actually below lvl 10. Agamemnon only really needed high wisdom scroll to be a commander, because afterwards he got killed by his wife (if i remember correctly).
In other news, so we are saying a wizard that can blow up 1/2 a city should still be able (5% chance) to fail at casting a fireball?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 23:36:27 GMT
So if you are a fragile little wizard you are supposed to stand next to a barbarian swinging a huge hammer about? Ummm the bow snaps and you get hit with a sharp piece of wood in the face? What monsters are you talking about? In RPGs monsters are supposed to target the biggest THREAT if there is something slashing it with a sword and something laying on the ground IT WILL ATTACK THE ONE HURTING IT. idk what kind of animals you have encountered. And solo play is naturally more dangerous. Well, stand at least 5 feet away (which is adjacent for our purposes). As pointed out, 75 feet away is usually optimal. But if 75 feet away isn't an option, then 5 feet away would normally be better than 10 feet away. Sorry, I've been thinking too much in terms of generic fantasy novels, where a swordsman will have the civilians stay close(ish) to him so that he can protect them. That... makes more sense than what I was originally picturing. Still, wouldn't that require the bow to break? Standard predatory tactics in canines and felines is to attack the sick, weak, injured, and young in a herd, because they move the slowest, and are least likely to injure the predator trying to kill them. You're right, in that the situation where a creature has been injured by one target, but not the one who just collapsed, it is unlikely to go after the one which collapsed, unless it's just trying to grab some meat and run away.
I agree that solo play is naturally more dangerous. I don't think it needs to be made *more* dangerous than it already is, but I don't think that's a common sentiment.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 23:39:06 GMT
At this point, I'm not sure there's much to say other than put it to a vote. I think, between all of us, especially Aramaus, that each side has effectively made their point, and that now it's down to personal preferences.
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Post by Silver on Aug 29, 2013 23:42:24 GMT
My thoughts are: Its not RAW, not everyone likes it, why do we have it then? If we are having things that arent "Core" that at most only 1/2 the people like, then where's 3rd party content? Because with the above criteria, they should be allowed.
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 29, 2013 23:46:02 GMT
I agree a vote is probably the best bet at this point.
Renen I am saddened by your underestimation of Greek myth and you do Agamemnon a grave disservice.
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Post by Silver on Aug 29, 2013 23:56:58 GMT
But he really was killed by only his wife... Stabbed or some such I dont remember details now. As for the other heroes, Ajax was strong, but not superhuman. He was just VERY VERY good. Assuming normal soldiers were around level 2-3 him being at 6-7 would fit about right (add in some special SLA to furhter demonstrate his power) Circe was strong, but she was fighting normal humans, ones w/o any magic. All she had to do was pump her DC, and they are all pigs. And Hercules, was likely the strongest, but unlikely to be too close to level 20 as he wasnt doing any dragon killing, and his fight with a hydra (CR11) was a relative challenge, requiring him to get help of Iolaus.
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 30, 2013 0:14:19 GMT
Agamemnon led in the front of the battles in the seige of Troy until he was wounded and forced to withdraw, he killed many trojans and stood his ground against Achilles (which turned out to be a pretty bad idea but he did it). Yes he was killed by either Clytemnestra or Aegisthus depending on the version, the murder usually involving an ambush with a vastly supperior force (or him falling asleep in the bath depending on the version).
I can deal with Ajax at 6-7 I would probably put him closer to 9-10 but I understand where you are coming from.
Circe blows up an island and turns humans into pigs with craft(alchemy) but most importantly she blows up an island (and is a minor goddess).
Hercules...I really don't know where to begin, Lets start with the list:
1. Slay the Nemean Lion. 2. Slay the nine-headed Lernaean Hydra. 3. Capture the Golden Hind of Artemis. 4. Capture the Erymanthian Boar. 5. Clean the Augean stables in a single day. 6. Slay the Stymphalian Birds. 7. Capture the Cretan Bull. 8. Steal the Mares of Diomedes. 9. Obtain the girdle of Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazons. 10. Obtain the cattle of the monster Geryon. 11. Steal the apples of the Hesperides. 12. Capture and bring back Cerberus.
He also regularly ticks off gods and walks away, including defying Zues. Incidentally he is mostly naked through most if not all of this. I also feel that him holding up the heavens all on his own after making a deal with Atlas deserves special mention. CR 11 my bottom the hydra doesn't even rank in the top 5 of his tasks.
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hemata
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 451
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Post by hemata on Aug 30, 2013 0:19:00 GMT
WARNING, WARNING, TOPIC DERAILMENT IMMINENT. INITIALIZING EMERGENCY THRUSTERS.
So yeah. About those fumbles.
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 30, 2013 0:24:39 GMT
I'm sorry I think I crit failed my will save there. I really do think we are at a point that we ought to just vote on the issue.
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Post by Lector on Aug 30, 2013 0:27:25 GMT
Sorry but a lvl 16 would be 1 shotting pretty much everything and moving at super human speeds
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cybernx
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 382
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Post by cybernx on Aug 30, 2013 1:43:47 GMT
A Poll and Proposal has been posted in the submition fourm
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Post by Effigy on Aug 30, 2013 1:47:01 GMT
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