Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 29, 2013 21:31:10 GMT
I gotta tell you Dax, as a wizard, if I am next to my tank I would be much better off 50 ft behind him, and if I can be 75ft behind him and still hit things then happy day.
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Post by Lector on Aug 29, 2013 21:37:12 GMT
A wizard and a fighter is just one example. A ranged PC could fumble and auto crit someone else or himself.
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Post by Silver on Aug 29, 2013 21:37:26 GMT
We went with bowstring to the face.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 21:38:24 GMT
Aramaus, you make a valid point. Regardless, clustering is / should be a perfectly reasonable tactic in response to being attacked by a horde of enemies.
Edit: There's no way in hell a bowstring to the face could do as much damage as an arrow to the face.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 21:40:37 GMT
Can you just imagine the wizard who fumbles with a scorching ray type spell and autocrits his ally?
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Perkins
Blackwater Pirate
Always trust your spirit.
Posts: 234
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Post by Perkins on Aug 29, 2013 21:43:46 GMT
That bowstring was lethal. It dealt like 12 or so damage to me lol. Hillarious moment was hillarious.
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Post by Lector on Aug 29, 2013 21:45:22 GMT
If anything since we need to roll to confirm crit, there should at least be a roll for success on a crit failure before they roll the fumble table. A failure success roll??
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 29, 2013 22:02:07 GMT
I think my actual problem with all this is that it makes things seem so much more mundane. If a 1 is just "you miss" you lose a lot of the excitement, the feeling of dred (when it is you) or the feeling of elation (when it is an enemy) that you get when you see that "1" on the dice. Honestly I think that the change proposed would make the game more boring/less exciting. Which is not a trade that should be made lightly. So I think the question you have to ask is how much excitement will you trade for safety?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 22:22:04 GMT
I feel quite differently Aramaus. To me, a fumble doesn't make the game more exciting. It's just a chance to make our (epic) heroes look like bumbling idiots. Which can be funny for everyone watching, but just makes me sad. If a character of mine that I had developed an attachment for died due to random chance, due to factors completely out of my control, then I would be irate.
I'm also concerned because this rule IS NOT BALANCED. It is NOT official Paizo material. It favors casters above all, then characters who make single, deadly attacks, and lastly it screws characters who make lots of attacks. Note that that's the reverse of how it should be in terms of power level generally.
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cybernx
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 382
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Post by cybernx on Aug 29, 2013 22:24:24 GMT
I like excitment. so I say keep the tables just as they are, or if you reay want to change them then make a fumble MORE dangerous.
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cybernx
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 382
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Post by cybernx on Aug 29, 2013 22:27:41 GMT
I'm also concerned because this rule IS NOT BALANCED. It is NOT official Paizo material. This is not your standard Pathfinder game and there is TONS of stuff in here that is not Paizo. If you really want Balance and Safety that much then go play PFS and leave us alone. Honestly I see you proposing more rule changes than the next 5 people combined. You shoulda learned what you were getting into before you came in here and started trying to change it all.
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hemata
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 451
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Post by hemata on Aug 29, 2013 22:41:48 GMT
Can you just imagine the wizard who fumbles with a scorching ray type spell and autocrits his ally? In a previous game I did actually happen to play a sorcerer who did crit an ally with a fumble, with scorching ray specifically. Yeah...party was kind of mad since I turned the party's cleric into a pile of Ash <__<
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hemata
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 451
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Post by hemata on Aug 29, 2013 22:48:49 GMT
Most people I've seen do confirmation for critical failures as roll a 1d20. On a natural 10 or lower you fumble, 11 to 20 you're fine.
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Post by Lector on Aug 29, 2013 22:51:20 GMT
I think my actual problem with all this is that it makes things seem so much more mundane. If a 1 is just "you miss" you lose a lot of the excitement, the feeling of dred (when it is you) or the feeling of elation (when it is an enemy) that you get when you see that "1" on the dice. Honestly I think that the change proposed would make the game more boring/less exciting. Which is not a trade that should be made lightly. So I think the question you have to ask is how much excitement will you trade for safety? I've played PF and DnD games with fumbles. It's never fun, and it rarely makes sense.
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 29, 2013 22:54:34 GMT
I do understand where you are coming from Dax I really do. I think cyber is pushing it a bit to say like it or get out, that's certainly not an effective attitude to have in a game like this. That being said he/she is right in that not all of our core rules come from Paizo, and while yes most if not all things that have to do with the creation and management of characters are expected to come explicitly from Paizo. You only need to take the briefest look at Clout's rulebook to see that there is more here than just Paizo. Balance is a rather limited concern (to me) and honestly I feel generally an overrated one (there are extremes to imbalance that should be avoided but I don't think the fumble rules reach those extremes).
To address your other concern we aren't epic heroes. Ajax was not a level 2 warrior, nor is Hercules a level 3 barbarian, Agamemnon did not lay seige to troy with fewer hit dice than fingers, and Circe did not oppose Odysseus when she still had to worry about spells per day. We are at best more powerful than average, and quite frankly a lot of better than average people die in very silly, accidental, or otherwise avoidable ways. At high levels (as in high enough that using a resurrection spell on wouldn't be a massive waste of gold) there are many, many ways to deal with unexpected damage, especially if you are in a party.
Lector, I didn't say fun I said exciting.
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