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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 30, 2013 14:28:48 GMT
*i moved it as i acidentally posted in wrong forum
i think people should get exp for crafting items this would allow people who are not fighter to level up at a better rate. the best idea ive come up with is dc*10 in experience for completing an item with added exp for magical items(potions and scrolls would not be included in this category) my only issue is that i can already see a way to exploit this i as an alchemist can make 28 dc 11 potions a week so i could just do that and lvl up almost every week until lvl 4 and just like with fighting exp is split between everyone who participated in the crafting if some can sugest a better system for crafting exp please do
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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 30, 2013 19:08:54 GMT
okay heres the proposal ill make
pc will gain dc*10 in experience for crafting mundane items and dc*15 for crafting magical items(potion and scolls do not count)
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 30, 2013 19:16:04 GMT
I mean you've already pointed out the problem with that alchemists can create huge numbers of potions. I'm not really sure magical items should give more exp because they aren't any harder to make and in many cases are easier.
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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 30, 2013 20:47:21 GMT
magic item are harder because they require spell and minimum caster lvl to make which is why i put this as far as i know only scroll and potions can be made from lvl 1
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 2:08:54 GMT
I like to be the devil's advocate so let me start:
DC as the basis for exp? that will be abused, find the shortest to create item lets say it's DC 12 and you can make 1 a day(thinking arrows, I'm sure there are better options), oh look crafters just make items(which make characters stronger) and gained 8400 exp in a week. Huzza! meanwhile with what Sentar can kill on hunts and his relative success rate and relative exp I can expect ~650 exp a week on average. Soon the entire realm will be sitting at their anvil instead of exploring. Because he can make arrows for 10x the exp per week. Answer use cost of item for exp, it will make more sense per the difficulty and time commitment of the item. But then you become able to have nations using their gold to power level a character... hmmm Don't like that either
I see crafting and killing as the 2 ways to strengthen your individual character(by exp and items), why give 1 the ability to give both?
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 31, 2013 2:48:46 GMT
On the one hand you are absolutely correct Sentar a dc based crafting exp system is easily abused. On the other hand my character is currently in a fantastic position to abuse the hell out of it (Incidentally I will be going with greatclubs for a number of reasons and it actually nets 11,200 exp a week.....so yeah.)1 So i'm stuck in a conflict between my greed and my desire for balance. So my response to the delima is to vote yes, if it passes abuse it, but be upfront and honest about it the whole way through.
The argument for a crafting exp system is that crafting requires a huge time investment in this system and given how useless gold is right now except for city building and crafting magical items there isn't a huge incentive to do it because you will lose out on huge amounts of exp. Further even if gold were useful there is currently no way to get it other than country income which is largely being used to improve countries (for good reason but still).
There has to be some incentive to craft and currently there really isn't one, and if we don't get some people who will dedicate themselves to crafting (I really would like to dedicate to crafting) there simply will not be equipment.
Is this a slippery slope fallacy? Maybe, but I think it is a real concern. Further I my character wants to be a blacksmith and have a wizard's shop where he sells his craft, but crafting is level dependent, why should I have to kill wolves to get better at making swords and magic doohickeys?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1This does require a specialized build and less focused individuals will likely get less, but it would still be more than hunts.
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Post by tarabull on Aug 31, 2013 3:06:51 GMT
The incentive to craft will grow when more hexes are claimed. Your greed hardly justifies a rule change. I haven't seen a single good argument for implementing this XP system. I want to gain levels for sitting on my ass? Am I right in saying that's the best justification here so far?
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 31, 2013 3:14:38 GMT
Tara I am not leading this change, nor am I recommending this system. I am agreeing that it is easily exploitable,I am voting yes and if it passes I will exploit it I am not attempting to hide this fact, and if the general population feels that the example I provided is not enough for them to vote down the proposal so be it.
The part of my post you seem to have missed reads "The argument for a crafting exp system is that crafting requires a huge time investment in this system and given how useless gold is right now except for city building and crafting magical items there isn't a huge incentive to do it because you will lose out on huge amounts of exp. Further even if gold were useful there is currently no way to get it other than country income which is largely being used to improve countries (for good reason but still). " The crafting system as it is now does not work, plain and simple and unless it is changed to make it either take less time or provide a more serious incentive it will continue to not work.
For a player based economy the crafting system has to work. Now I'm not really sure why you are being so hostile, I would love to hear how more hexes solves the problems the system has, but vague reassurances and insults will not help anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 3:20:27 GMT
I... tend to agree with Tarabull, though I sympathize with Aramaus' point.
I haven't looked at the crafting tables thoroughly. Is it possible to make a caster who dabbles in crafting? Could you be a caster who goes on adventures like everyone else, but takes forge ring as his 7th level feat because no one can make rings yet? That way no one would have to make a significant "sacrifice" in order to be a crafter, but magic items could still get produced.
I also expect to see that (once magic items become a thing) dedicated crafters will get power-leveled/babysat by their factions in exchange for their services. Whether this is a reasonable outcome or not is up for debate.
Edit: If the crafting system is really that broken, I think the proper thing to do would be to fix it, not give xp to crafters.
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Post by tarabull on Aug 31, 2013 3:43:25 GMT
Aramaus: You're right. I am hostile to ideas that harm the realm. Power grows through XP and $. when the lowhanging XP fruit runs out (no hexes left to explore) and there's gold aplenty the crafting kicks in. As only PCs can craft magic items they will become an increasingly valuable part of the game, possibly a major differentiator in the PvP that will be ubiquitous at that point.
My objection, couched more incendiarily, lies in the fact that this is a move towards turning Realm of Calidor into a farming game. While there are elements of farming in the game, this is overkill and will be detrimental to the development of plot because it incentivizes inaction, the rule you support discourages interaction with the world or other characters beyond what the role of crafting will organically (through systems already in place) inherit in the game.
In addition: the proposal, you admit, is exploitable. You are involved in a social game, being communally developed and you've said you will support changes to the rules to the benefit of yourself and the detriment of playability.
Referring to gold you said: "there is currently no way to get it other than country income." You can jack gold from other countries, you can act as a mercenary, I have just been elected today, I get to name and salary officials of the Realm.
Kindly refrain from pretending to holding the moral highground or credibility when you've already forfeited both.
Admitting that you're a defector from the common good does not justify the transgression.
EDIT(to end on an upbeat note) I should note here that I am counting on additions from new modules and other rules to address the issue of leveling for those less inclined to violent encounters. NPC army/kingdom rules and Ultimate Campaign generally can be a good source for these options. There is another thread opening up the potential for roleplaying XP.
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 31, 2013 4:12:12 GMT
Tara I really don't understand where you are coming from. That not true I do know where you come from when you oppose the revision as stated, it has already been revised once I have no doubt it will be revised again and again.
You still haven't commented on the actual problems with crafting you are talking about a future where there are no hexes left to explore (which is many years down the road) suggesting that there being gold aplenty solves inherent problems with the crafting system (which is that you have to spend nearly a month to make any kind of mid tier equipment, which not only isn't fun but it also isn't rewarding in a meaningful way, and wont be for a very long time even assuming you are actually right about the hexes solving the problem).
I still haven't insulted you once Tara, even if I don't have the moral high ground.
If this proposal passes, it passes because of a majority vote, I have been entirely upfront about the consequences of the proposal. If the public decides that this proposal is for the public good so be it, if they decide it isn't for the public good I won't lose any sleep over it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 4:22:28 GMT
I just can't get behind something after the potential for exploitation has been made so plain, but sadly there are alot of crafter in the realm and it may indeed pass, I'll have to go commit suicide and create a new crafter or be left in the dust.
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Aramaus
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 107
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Post by Aramaus on Aug 31, 2013 4:25:01 GMT
The disadvantage of true democracy is that what the majority says goes, and sometimes the majority doesn't make good decisions. All you can do is provide clear information and hope for the best.
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Post by tarabull on Aug 31, 2013 4:29:24 GMT
If the speed of crafting is what you dislike about it, let's address that. NPCs, a change to the rules around masterworking: there are ways to alter pace. The rule in question doesn't address that issue. You iterating and reiterating that issue is insulting, just as waving a straw man in a person's face is insulting.
We can, I suppose, go through the game changing the rules to benefit ourselves at every opportunity. As you say, sleep will hardly be lost over it. The game will though. It will stagnate and die due to lack of integrity in those charged with maintaining the rules in a way that facilitates exciting game play. If we abuse our rule making powers as you so openly do, we will not last the years it will take the hexes to fill up.
Would you like kudos for being upfront about your greed, your disregard for duty?
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constantine
Volken
Constantine Ilfrey, Wizard Extraordinaire. For a sum i can make you feel as good as it gets.
Posts: 242
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Post by constantine on Aug 31, 2013 7:39:14 GMT
Why did you make a poll about this. People are still discussing it and you haven't come with a final proposal. Please don't do like this in the future.
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