Azx
Knight of The New Order
I'M BACK BABY!
Posts: 136
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Post by Azx on Aug 29, 2013 2:32:32 GMT
As a 3.5 vet, I strongly urge you NOT to use it's LA system! It was flawed at it's core. I prefer to go by CR and all "class levels" count as a +1 to CR. So a level 5 Human fighter would be at the same CR as a level 3 Half-Red Dragon Half-Elf sorcerer. This new system does can be exploited but is the most balanced system that I have come across.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 2:38:35 GMT
How is CR different than ECL?
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hemata
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 451
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Post by hemata on Aug 29, 2013 2:41:41 GMT
We're not using 3.5's level adjustment system. We're going by an experience reduction the more advanced your race is. Your suggestion though IS to use the Level Adjustment System, because that's what 3.5 did for powerful races, you were counted as a higher ECL thus it took more experience to level up.
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Post by Sentar(Spade) on Aug 29, 2013 3:32:54 GMT
ya LA is not the best system even in 3.5, maybe, just maybe I might be okay with a savage progression like idea, but honestly that would be alot of work for the DM
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 4:07:03 GMT
I'm not 100% sold on the LA idea, but I haven't heard a better system explained. Azx, could you explain what you mean by the CR system, or give a link? Spade, could you give an example of how a savage progression would work?
As much as you're complaining about LA, the current system is sort of like LA, but *worse*. It basically starts off at a +1 LA, and turns into a +6 LA by level 20. The monstrous is similar, but it turns into a +10.
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Azx
Knight of The New Order
I'M BACK BABY!
Posts: 136
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Post by Azx on Aug 29, 2013 4:23:50 GMT
LA usually made extremely weak characters and was used to discourage monsters as characters.
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hemata
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 451
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Post by hemata on Aug 29, 2013 4:26:21 GMT
So what do you suggest in its stead?
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Post by Sentar(Spade) on Aug 29, 2013 10:22:19 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 13:36:11 GMT
A savage progression would be easy. You'd just assign 10 rp to start, and give 10 rp per level, at least going by my metric. That doesn't work very well for some races, especially where certain high value abilities are all supposed to be iconic (particularly undead and construct type). This would be an additional nerf to higher powered races, and would be otherwise functionally equivalent to the rules already proposed.
I am kind of bemused though. Spade is complaining about the LA system because it gives characters too much power too soon. Azx is complaining about the LA system because it makes characters too weak.
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cybernx
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 382
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Post by cybernx on Aug 29, 2013 14:13:50 GMT
I think Clout has a handle on this, He put up a Poll as to weather custome races should be allowed at all, I Voted to get rid of em given all the issuees they bring.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 14:32:14 GMT
I think Clout has a handle on this, He put up a Poll as to weather custome races should be allowed at all, I Voted to get rid of em given all the issuees they bring. This discussion assumes that custom races will be allowed. This discussion is also relevant to high rp value core races.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2013 23:05:46 GMT
Custom races are not banned, according to recent polls. I think we need more discussion on this issue.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 10:50:53 GMT
Had a completely different idea. What about instead of messing with xp, you mess with the point buy?
Something like for every point of RP over 10, you lose 1 point worth of point buy. Divide by 2 for custom races, divide by 3 for standard high RP races. Current standard high rp characters are grandfathered in, but not custom races. (values subject to change). Round point buy down.
So a drow would have a 23 point buy, a svirfneblin would have a 20 pb.
A 20 point custom race would have a 20 pb, a 30 point custom race would have a 15 pb.
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cybernx
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 382
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Post by cybernx on Aug 31, 2013 13:17:25 GMT
Had a completely different idea. What about instead of messing with xp, you mess with the point buy? Something like for every point of RP over 10, you lose 1 point worth of point buy. Divide by 2 for custom races, divide by 3 for standard high RP races. Current standard high rp characters are grandfathered in, but not custom races. (values subject to change). Round point buy down. So a drow would have a 23 point buy, a svirfneblin would have a 20 pb. A 20 point custom race would have a 20 pb, a 30 point custom race would have a 15 pb. I played in another massive game like this (It went belly up) and they had a system like what you propose. They handled it like this Non-core races will have their 20 points for point buy reduced by the race RP-10. And you must get GM approval. Lower than 10 RP races still have a 20 point buy. This worked out great and we never had a OP player that wasn't min maxing his class.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 14:35:19 GMT
A 1 to 1 on RP sounds a bit steep. Adding +2 to a stat costs 4 RP. Adding +2 to a stat costs anywhere between 2 pb and 7 pb. If we assume the low end is reasonable, but that Advanced Stat boosting options are banned, then that would support the 2 RP for 1 pb ratio.
Well, let me work through some examples to see what comes up.
I assume that my caveats in the race restriction thread apply, that the advanced ability score array is not available, and that the advanced stat modifiers are not available. Let's also add that if you use an advanced ability, your max pb is 20, and if you use a monstrous your max pb is 15
For comparison, here's a (min maxed) orc stat block: 20 str, 14 dex, 16 con, 8 int, 8 wis, 8 cha
Here's an example half-dragon race within the limits of my imposed restrictions: 2 RP: Flexible: Str +2, Con +2 10 RP: Dragon type 3 RP: Natural Armor +2 2 RP: Claws 2 RP: Bitex2 1 RP: Breath Weapon
It would have a 15 pb with CybernXs rate, and a 20 pb with mine. Assuming a straightforward martial character, it would have stats like: 16 str, 12 dex, 16 con, 11 int, 12 wis, 10 cha. (1:1) OR 18 str, 12 dex, 16 con, 11 int, 12 wis, 10 cha. (1:2)
Compared to the orc, both versions have more mental stats, but probably fall off in damage. The 20 pb version probably makes up for the mildly lower strength with his extra attack options. The 15 pb option probably doesn't. It also has slightly higher AC from natural armor (but less points to spend on dex)
But the half-dragon isn't power gamed nearly enough. Let's try a half-ogre.
+3 RP Monstrous Humanoid (Giant) +1 RP Specialized +2 str, +2 con -2 int +7 RP Large Size +2 str, -2 dex -1 Slow +2 +1 natural armor
10 RP
Statline: Str 20, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 9/10, Wis 12, Cha 10
This is the most minmaxed (melee build) character I could come up with using the system and restrictions, and it avoids going much higher than 10 regardless of whether it's 1:1 or 1:2. It has one lower AC than the orc, but has +1 to +3.5 damage based on having a larger weapon. The culprit here is large size, but I'm not sure its benefits outweigh the penalties.
I'm starting to think that the 1:2 policy mixed with the restrictions creates a more or less fair environment. More to come later. (Without the restrictions, a 1:1 would be necessary, but would be prohibitive wrt many bells and whistles.)
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