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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 17:13:55 GMT
So, I was looking at some of the rules for races, and things seem kind of out of whack. Here's a proposed rebalance.
Current: All official races are allowed (except drow noble). None take any sort of xp penalty. Custom races are allowed. Advanced races get 50% xp, and monstrous races get 25% xp.
Problem 1: Not all races are created equal. There's very little reason to play one of the base races, from a mechanical standpoint. An egregious example of this is the svirfneblin, which is based on 24 RP.
Problem 2: The xp reduction for custom races is ridiculous. Roughly speaking, advanced races multiple the level they should have by .7 (round down), and monstrous races multiply by .5 (round down). There is, in my opinion, no 30 RP race you can build with the race builder system that would justify being level 10 instead of level 20.
Proposal: Use a LA system like dnd 3.5. My first thought for guidelines for LA is as follows: Core Race where RP <= 10 RP: +0 Core Race where 10 < RP <= 20: +1 Core Race where 20 < RP <= 30: +2 Custom Race where RP <= 10: +1 Custom Race where 10 < RP <= 20 or with Advanced Traits: +2 Custom Race where 20 < RP <= 30 or with Monstrous Traits: +3
The LA system means that the xp you need to get to the next level is as if you were that many levels higher. Thus, a level 2 drow would need 4000 xp to get to level 3, instead of 3000. A svirfneblin would need 5000. A custom construct race would need 6000.
Additionally, if you're worried about that not being severe enough for 1st level characters, you can say that to get to second level, you need to have acquired enough xp to get through the previous levels. Thus, a drow would need to get 5000 xp to get to second level. A svirfneblin would need 9000 xp to get to second level, and a construct custom race would need 14000 xp to get to second level. I'm not sure about this option.
This ties into the idea that racial advantages are generally more important at low levels. As the higher level you get, the less impactful the additional xp cost is. With the more severe option tacked on, this is especially true, because it delays second level.
Thoughts?
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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 28, 2013 17:27:38 GMT
there actually is something for the higher rp races in pathfinder i believe its from 10-20 rp you need to spend a feet to be that race from 20-30 you need to spend 2 and so on and so forth also lower rp races get an extra feat i believe
requiring players to get that much xp to get to lvl 2 is ridicules but as im playing a dark gnome im a little biased what you propose is basicly just a reverse of the present problem where no one would want to be any race with more than 10 rp
if players are punished for picking a high rp race does this extend to regarding players who pick a low rp race get a -1 lvl ajustment so a koblald would lvl faster than say a human or a dark gnome
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 18:14:27 GMT
Simply spending a feat doesn't cut it. You can make races with a whole slew of bonus feats if you want to counteract that, AND a bunch of other bonuses besides. The svirfneblin in particular gets a whole slew of abilities that are worth significantly more than two feats, including good spell resistance and +2 dodge bonus to ac.
I'm not sure about the extra xp to get to second level in addition to the other stuff. I'd like to hear what other people think about that.
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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 28, 2013 18:17:50 GMT
im stating the paizo rules on this personally i thought the xp detraction was to stop people from playing custom races at all
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Post by Effigy on Aug 28, 2013 18:25:16 GMT
I believe rules are in place as a deterrence
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 18:48:51 GMT
I'm generally of the opinion that if you find yourself nerfing a choice into oblivion, you should just be honest and ban it instead.
That doesn't mean we couldn't use the suggested system, or a variation thereof, as a reasonable alternative IF we think it's balanced.
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Post by hunterkiller725 on Aug 28, 2013 18:53:20 GMT
i believe they had banned the custom races originally but people kept asking anyway
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samuelm
Knight of The New Order
Posts: 133
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Post by samuelm on Aug 28, 2013 19:28:06 GMT
It is true that the current rule for custom races is quite harsh. I like Dax's idea but I'd also like to add something to that. If remember correctly, in 3.5 if you were playing as a race with level adjustments, for the first few levels you would have no class and simply be a member of your race (which had its own BaB, Hit dice and saves). Could we use that as well?
Also, how will we adjust the levels of characters playing custom races right now? This seems like a lengthy and complicated process but I don't think the people playing those kinds of races would mind making the changes themselves since they'd be gaining more experience from then on.
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Post by Effigy on Aug 28, 2013 19:28:07 GMT
It was a vote that put penalty on there. I think it was between banning them or xp restriction
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cybernx
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 382
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Post by cybernx on Aug 28, 2013 20:27:20 GMT
I like the current system
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 21:45:35 GMT
In 3.5, you can't start a game with an ecl(level + la) higher than that of the party. Neverwinter nights 2, which allowed level adjustments and started at first level, handled the system exactly as I proposed.
I would recommend that the people this affects should a) Be allowed to change their race but remain superficially the same in order to avoid a level adjustment. (Intended to throw a bone to dark elves / gnomes who only wanted to play them when they were OP). It should be fairly easy to compile a list of what races this will apply to. b) They get to stay whatever level they have, and to keep their progress to the next level, but must follow the new rules from now on.
Samuelm - you don't think, say, that having an advanced custom race pay 9000 xp to get to level 2, and an extra 2000 xp per level after that is harsh enough? Not having class levels could be extremely harsh for some advanced races, especially for ones being used as casters which are already way behind.
CybernX, why do you like the current system over the one I've proposed? Your race really should be built using 20 RP, not 10 RP, but should not then have to face the horrible disadvantages currently in place.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 1:42:28 GMT
I don't like this idea, for those that are currently in the game this would give them a disadvantage. This opens up the game to more min maxing that current players did not have access to.
Also I'm guessing this is wanted so that people can enter the game stronger? I know the low levels are rough in this campaign but that is what makes this more realistic, people have to group up in order to survive no lone hero is going to go take on an army anytime soon in this game.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 1:57:22 GMT
Sentar, I'm trying to make it so that all races are roughly equal in the long run. Currently, I think the idea is that the "punishment" for having an easier first level is having to be at first level longer. Why, specifically, do you think this would make things unbalanced? Is there a way you think you could fix things so that it wasn't unbalanced?
As far as not having had access - Sentar, if this passed, you could always kill your character and make a new one. You won't though, because you already have some goodly amount of xp, and that's worth way more than any advantage you'd get out of playing a new race.
Edit: Sorry. You probably also won't because you're attached to your character, his personality, and the story he's built with other people so far. From a pure min/maxing standpoint, I think my point stands.
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cybernx
Blackwater Pirate
Posts: 382
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Post by cybernx on Aug 29, 2013 2:23:40 GMT
CybernX, why do you like the current system over the one I've proposed? Your race really should be built using 20 RP, not 10 RP, but should not then have to face the horrible disadvantages currently in place. I like the system because it promotes a stable amount of Diversity with out making it unrealistic. If any one can create a super powerful and unique race with little to no penalty beside being stuck at 1 longer then we have a world of improbability. Basicaly, I like the boundrys the way they are and belive they should not be changed for fear of a world filled with Driders and Centaures. And on the note of my race...originally my race was not a race at all but in fact a Stone Giant with the half Dragon template and he was going to be a one of a kind individual not a race in and of its self, but the community voted him down saying he was too powerful.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 2:26:52 GMT
CybernX. This doesn't just keep someone at level 1 longer. It makes it so that they are consistently X levels behind someone with an equivalent amount of experience, where X is the amount of LA.
So if I'm a powerful construct race with 30 RP, then by the time I hit level 2, my buddy the gnome wizard who has been traveling with me will be level 5 and have 3rd level spells.
Edit, and when I'm level 6, they'll be level 9 with fifth level spells.
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