Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2013 8:55:08 GMT
So, I've recently started playing and I've noticed some rough times people had with encounters, and in ways that didn't quite make sense. Here's my attempt at analysis of the situation and a proposed alternative. Note that I don't necessarily understand the motivations behind some design decisions, so please don't be offended if I'm criticizing something you've chosen without considering the reason you chose to do it that way. I also posted this really late at night, so there might be some weird typos.
Current System:
Currently, both parties roll perception. Whoever gets the highest perception gets the surprise round. The other side doesn't get to go until someone fails a stealth check or makes an attack. The distance between parties at start is determined randomly. During the surprise round, the winning side gets a full round action, but the surprise round immediately goes to normal initiative once someone is noticed. Players may not start with their weapons out.
(In rough order of severity)
Problem 1: This doesn't take into account the stealthiness of the individuals in question. To take the example to extremes, the goblin rogue and the stone giant fighter could have the same chance of surprising the other, despite drastically different degrees of notability.
Problem 2: The random distance can create some pretty nonsensical results. The two most egregious examples I saw were where a deer started the hunt adjacent to a barbarian (Effigy) and his motely crew. I could be wrong, but Effigy didn't seem like a particularly stealthy character, but the deer was unaware of his presence despite being *right there*. The other example was where the PC party again won the perception roll, but was placed surrounded by a peasant mob of 20 individuals, completely surrounded. The peasants didn't actually know the party was there, despite having them surrounded, and the party, despite seeing the peasants coming, let themselves get surrounded. It was .. odd. Worse, it led to a TPK.
Problem 3: This isn't how surprise rounds work. According to the pathfinder rules, once combat starts (aka, someone does something to start combat), initiative is rolled. If some of the combatants are unaware of their opponents during the surprise round, then there is a surprise round where everyone who is aware of their opponents gets a single standard action. If no one or everyone is aware of their opponents, there is no surprise round. Note that the surprise round does not start until combat starts due to some trigger.
Problem 4: No sane adventurer or hunter goes around in hostile territory without his preferred weapon drawn. It might be argued that having a large cumbersome two handed weapon would be too tiring, but the same surely shouldn't be said of most ranged, one handed, or light weapons? Even disregarding that point, if you see the enemy before they see you, it seems highly unlikely that you wouldn't have drawn your weapon before combat has started.
Proposal:
Have each group roll perception versus the other groups stealth. Whoever gets the largest margin of victory sees the other first. The margin of victory dictates how far away you see the other group. Roll highest perception versus lowest stealth. A party may get a bonus to their stealth roll by putting distance between the stealthiest and least stealthy character, +1 per 10 feet, up to a maximum of the modifier for the stealthiest character (aka the scout).
Example:
Party A gets a 20 for perception and a 15 for stealth. Party B gets a 20 for perception and a 10 for stealth. Party A sees Party B first, at 100 feet away (20 - 10)*10 feet. Party B would have seen party A when they were 50 feet away (20-15)*10 feet. Party A becomes aware of the Party B at that 100 feet, and play proceeds as normal. Preparatory actions may be taken, but stealth checks must be taken as normal, and loud actions like casting spells may immediately give away their position. Note that combat can be triggered by Party A taking a hostile action, in which case all of party A gets a surprise round, or by party A failing a stealth check, in which case no surprise round is had.
Modifiers to stealth:
By default, the stealth scored rolled is the lowest stealth score in the group. Note that if you have a good perception score but the party has unstealthy members, you can avoid being ambushed, but you won't be sneaking up on anyone. This makes sense.
Scouts: By putting a stealthy / high perception character out front, a party can avoid being surprised. Every 10 feet forward the scout is put adds +1 to the stealth roll, up to a maximum of the scouts solo stealth score. If the scout is successful, he is assumed to be able to return to the party without incident, but if he is unsuccessful, he is ambushed some distance away from his party. Also, in this case you use the scouts perception score, not the highest in the party.
Size of group: Big groups attract more attention. Every individual after the first gives a minus one to stealth.
Terrain: Terrain should simply change the distances involved. Forest/Jungle might change every instance of 10 feet to 5 feet, and plains might be 20 feet. 10 feet was chosen because the perception rules state that you get a -1 penalty to perception per 10 feet of distance.
Special Situation:
If both groups fail to beat the others stealth checks, they simply walk by each other. This is most likely in the case with two lone low perception high stealth characters. This is extremely unlikely in the case of two armies.
If the scouts fail to see the enemy, but are not discovered: If the enemy party sneaks by the scout without seeing the scout, roll again as if the scout wasn't in the party. The scene starts with the results of this second roll, with distances from the main party as normal for the ambushing party, and the scout as far ahead as was previously determined by the party.
Scout groups: You can have more than one scout, probably so that if a scout gets caught alone, he's not quite so screwed. Treat the scout "solo" modifier as the modifier it would have were it a normal scout group. Taken to the extreme, you could have a normal party, but with one noisy member following you 60 feet behind.
Benefits of this set of rules: It's more accurate, less random, and less frustrating for characters who want to be tactical. It should produce less bizarre results unless people epicly fail their checks.
Problems: It's waaaay more complicated. Since the most important concern is whether or not the DMs can run it consistently, it can only be implemented if it makes sense to all the DMs.
Suggestions on simplification? Thoughts? Questions? Concerns? Want me to post some more examples?
Thanks for reading! Hope my thoughts aren't too out there.
Current System:
Currently, both parties roll perception. Whoever gets the highest perception gets the surprise round. The other side doesn't get to go until someone fails a stealth check or makes an attack. The distance between parties at start is determined randomly. During the surprise round, the winning side gets a full round action, but the surprise round immediately goes to normal initiative once someone is noticed. Players may not start with their weapons out.
(In rough order of severity)
Problem 1: This doesn't take into account the stealthiness of the individuals in question. To take the example to extremes, the goblin rogue and the stone giant fighter could have the same chance of surprising the other, despite drastically different degrees of notability.
Problem 2: The random distance can create some pretty nonsensical results. The two most egregious examples I saw were where a deer started the hunt adjacent to a barbarian (Effigy) and his motely crew. I could be wrong, but Effigy didn't seem like a particularly stealthy character, but the deer was unaware of his presence despite being *right there*. The other example was where the PC party again won the perception roll, but was placed surrounded by a peasant mob of 20 individuals, completely surrounded. The peasants didn't actually know the party was there, despite having them surrounded, and the party, despite seeing the peasants coming, let themselves get surrounded. It was .. odd. Worse, it led to a TPK.
Problem 3: This isn't how surprise rounds work. According to the pathfinder rules, once combat starts (aka, someone does something to start combat), initiative is rolled. If some of the combatants are unaware of their opponents during the surprise round, then there is a surprise round where everyone who is aware of their opponents gets a single standard action. If no one or everyone is aware of their opponents, there is no surprise round. Note that the surprise round does not start until combat starts due to some trigger.
Problem 4: No sane adventurer or hunter goes around in hostile territory without his preferred weapon drawn. It might be argued that having a large cumbersome two handed weapon would be too tiring, but the same surely shouldn't be said of most ranged, one handed, or light weapons? Even disregarding that point, if you see the enemy before they see you, it seems highly unlikely that you wouldn't have drawn your weapon before combat has started.
Proposal:
Have each group roll perception versus the other groups stealth. Whoever gets the largest margin of victory sees the other first. The margin of victory dictates how far away you see the other group. Roll highest perception versus lowest stealth. A party may get a bonus to their stealth roll by putting distance between the stealthiest and least stealthy character, +1 per 10 feet, up to a maximum of the modifier for the stealthiest character (aka the scout).
Example:
Party A gets a 20 for perception and a 15 for stealth. Party B gets a 20 for perception and a 10 for stealth. Party A sees Party B first, at 100 feet away (20 - 10)*10 feet. Party B would have seen party A when they were 50 feet away (20-15)*10 feet. Party A becomes aware of the Party B at that 100 feet, and play proceeds as normal. Preparatory actions may be taken, but stealth checks must be taken as normal, and loud actions like casting spells may immediately give away their position. Note that combat can be triggered by Party A taking a hostile action, in which case all of party A gets a surprise round, or by party A failing a stealth check, in which case no surprise round is had.
Modifiers to stealth:
By default, the stealth scored rolled is the lowest stealth score in the group. Note that if you have a good perception score but the party has unstealthy members, you can avoid being ambushed, but you won't be sneaking up on anyone. This makes sense.
Scouts: By putting a stealthy / high perception character out front, a party can avoid being surprised. Every 10 feet forward the scout is put adds +1 to the stealth roll, up to a maximum of the scouts solo stealth score. If the scout is successful, he is assumed to be able to return to the party without incident, but if he is unsuccessful, he is ambushed some distance away from his party. Also, in this case you use the scouts perception score, not the highest in the party.
Size of group: Big groups attract more attention. Every individual after the first gives a minus one to stealth.
Terrain: Terrain should simply change the distances involved. Forest/Jungle might change every instance of 10 feet to 5 feet, and plains might be 20 feet. 10 feet was chosen because the perception rules state that you get a -1 penalty to perception per 10 feet of distance.
Special Situation:
If both groups fail to beat the others stealth checks, they simply walk by each other. This is most likely in the case with two lone low perception high stealth characters. This is extremely unlikely in the case of two armies.
If the scouts fail to see the enemy, but are not discovered: If the enemy party sneaks by the scout without seeing the scout, roll again as if the scout wasn't in the party. The scene starts with the results of this second roll, with distances from the main party as normal for the ambushing party, and the scout as far ahead as was previously determined by the party.
Scout groups: You can have more than one scout, probably so that if a scout gets caught alone, he's not quite so screwed. Treat the scout "solo" modifier as the modifier it would have were it a normal scout group. Taken to the extreme, you could have a normal party, but with one noisy member following you 60 feet behind.
Benefits of this set of rules: It's more accurate, less random, and less frustrating for characters who want to be tactical. It should produce less bizarre results unless people epicly fail their checks.
Problems: It's waaaay more complicated. Since the most important concern is whether or not the DMs can run it consistently, it can only be implemented if it makes sense to all the DMs.
Suggestions on simplification? Thoughts? Questions? Concerns? Want me to post some more examples?
Thanks for reading! Hope my thoughts aren't too out there.